After a good few weeks of emails, wrong numbers (from me) contact with Tommy was finally established so this interview could happen. So, something nice & strong was opened, a tape or two rolled while Mr. Rivers braved the Yorkshire brogue & what we have here is most of what was said of relevance (and quite possibly some that's not) regarding the Tommy Rivers and the Raw Ramp's album, songwriting, Tommy's travels so far, besides talk of tornadoes (as you do), Keef, Savannah and The Black Crowes over a crackly transatlantic phone line. 

So, The Raw Ramps album's out now, is there anything else due to be out..

"Actually, I've got four tracks and I'm just trying to make a determination...whether or not to go back in the studio and record some more songs and do another full length CD or to go with four songs on an EP but really I'm just focussed right now on trying to promote the Raw Ramps CD which you guys got and do some dates and hopefully we can work out at least a mini-tour of the East Coast here at some point."

You used to live in Boston...would you be getting back up that way?

"Yeah, I'd love to...that'd be what I'd really like to do. Tour up the East Coast and play Chapel Hill, North Carolina, maybe DC, probably New York and Boston."

So how's rehearsals coming on-you kicking 'em into shape?

"Yeah, actually we didn't rehearse for about a week and a half and got together and we were all kinda scared cos we're getting ready to play out and should be hitting it really hard and it just was like "Bam!" it was just there, we could just about have done the gig that night....go over the same stuff you get too rehearsed, it gets boring...when you get back to it after a few days off it's fresh again..."

Yeah, I always think that except soundchecks, you don't rehearse the day of a gig and preferably not the day before.

"That's a curse....it was funny. Cos we had a two week layoff I was kinda scared but the other people were more scared....and I said "there's nothing to worry about" and we just had a great time. For me rehearsals are an event in themselves...I go to rehearsal and I like it. Some people don't like it...I don't get this with these groups of musicians that don't rehearse. To me it's a cool thing. You get together, you're hanging out, telling stories, and you're doing some work."

You talked the other night about when you met Rick and had been in bands with him before from when you moved from Boston back down to Atlanta....so we can get it on tape can you go over this?

"Yeah...I moved to Boston and played in a couple of bands there and first writing some new stuff and recording. I'd actually been writing stuff since I was about 16...growing up in Atlanta I didn't really take it seriously in terms of exposure...when I got to Boston had a band named Ready Teddy and they were doing all their own material, so they backed me up on some demo tapes up there. I was just humming along with that and playing in another band who played all over New England - prep schools, colleges, within a hundred miles of Boston- but wound up coming back to Atlanta for a visit and a friend of mine took me out to where these guys were rehearsing, said you gotta meet this guy, this guitar player Rick Richards. So I walked in and I think he was playing one of those Danelectros, he had an open tuning and was playing slide and I was just like "Good grief!" I'd never seen anybody actually do this right up close and so anyway it was kinda "Hey how are you?". I dunno, I was down here for about a week or so and kept bumping into each other and just got to talking and told him how I'd been living in Boston and we could put a band together and do some fun stuff with our own songs. He was kinda sceptical, of course. Basically like I told you we pretty much just had a Top 40 scene here...So I talked him into it. It took us quite a while actually to put a band together, just finding the right people. The funny thing that happened was - I mean it really took quite a while, 6 months if not longer - but unintentionally what happened was there got to be a little buzz around town about what we were doing, and it piqued a lot of peoples interest, so by the time we did get what turned out to be a really great rhythm section there was all this anticipation [that] had been built up, and so [it was] kind of big deal, and a lot of people came to our first show. It was very exciting. I can remember telling Rick "You're gonna have to sing harmonies as well" and he said something like "Well look, man, I'm still trying to find myself on guitar" and I said "No, I think you've already found yourself." He really took to singing...I dunno where his ears were based but he really took to it quite well..."

Is it him singing harmony on Try'n Like A Fool?

"Let's see, he may have. I might have put a harmony on that on top of mine. I'm pretty sure he did harmony on 'Christmastime is Cruel', if memory serves correct."

What time we looking at when you met Rick. Was it pre-Georgia Satellites or after?

"No, it was way pre! The band we formed was called The Desperate Angels and we put out two 45's. As I mentioned to you the other day I've got some of the first ones. Actually, the funny thing about that is one of the local publications here in Atlanta about a month ago did a readers poll- the Top 40 releases out of Atlanta and that first 45 they put in there a little review of that...this was quite a while ago so it was interesting somebody still remembered it. The other funny thing about it too is somehow or other, I have no idea, cos we didn't really have any, or were really savvy with, distribution and marketing at that point..."

Was it a local Georgia based release?

"Yeah. I knew a little bit about it living in Boston...there's a guy up there - Willie Alexander - knew a lot of stuff about it that I picked up a lot from. So, anyway, I have no idea how it happened that first Desperate Angels 45 found its way over to Spain and to this day - we're registered with BMI Performing Rights association - Rick and I still get cheques. BMI can't tell you exactly where only designate a region so we know somebody's still playing it in Spain. We get cheques every once in a while...talking like $25." 

But it gets you a few drinks, tho!

"Yeah! It's gratifying if it's 5 dollars."

It's one of those where I guess you'd be, "I wanna know who's playing it"...

"I'd like to meet these people, talk to them..."

There seems to be a good understanding of underground Rock'n'Roll stuff over there, like with the Munster label, say, where you look at stuff and go "Where did that come from?"

"Talking with Michele Vee, she actually visited Spain a few years ago with Subsonics and she was just knocked out how much more, I guess all thru Europe and UK too, how much more informed kids were about American roots music. Over here the kids know nothing about it.

I think it's not being from there, you mythologize a romantic view of it ... say you go buy a record then find out who they're into and go buy that...

"Just for an example. You go back to The Beatles and The Stones...they were picking up all these American releases wherever they could find them. I'm sure it had a really exotic appeal which if you grew up in Alabama it wouldn't have that sort of mysterious je ne sais quoi...But getting back to Boston. One of the cool things about Boston...."

Apart from the band...

"Well, they were getting big then...but the British groups would come - like in New York on Broadway they'll take a Broadway show up to Connecticut to run thru it before they debut - apparently a lot of the British groups used Boston as a test run...I can remember this great story about Steve Tyler of Aerosmith went to this place, I believe called The Boston Club, and saw Led Zeppelin on their first American date...I think his girlfriend ran off with Jimmy Page...that was pretty influential on me, to be able to have that kind of access...having Led Zeppelin playing in a local club...amazing!..it was just a really exciting time - a real education."

What sort of time was this?

"Mid to late seventies...as it turned out I found out most of the guys from Aerosmith lived right in my neighbourhood."

Did you know at the time?

"No, not at the time. Wound up opening for Aerosmith at a pop festival on Rhode Island - an outdoor thing, pretty big deal. Actually, what happened was they ferried us over to the site cos there was only one road to it and the helicopter, this old marine transport helicopter - and I hated flying - and the door was wide open, real scary, and I get physically sick. So I was rescued by these two young ladies who turned out to be Steven Tyler's seamstresses. They took me back to the VIP tent and nursed me back - it was horrible..."

What stuff kick-started your interest in music when you were little...that made you go "I wanna fuckin do that"?

"What inspired me? My early exposure was from Top 40 radio, fortunately at the time you could hear Bob Dylan . I remember the first time I heard Jumpin' Jack Flash driving around with my mom and had this reaction - "that is the coolest thing I've ever heard". I mentioned to you about The Byrds but The Beatles and The Stones probably had at an early age the biggest influence, especially The Beatles and I guess Dylan. I got into The Stones a bit later."

I notice that in stuff from the album, the odd thing where you can see Beatles Revolver time, in 'Normal Town' and also 'Rip Out The Sky'.

"I'm glad you brought that up about 'Normal Town'. Actually, I feel like I didn't quite finish it. I'd like to have put maybe 1 or 2 more bells and whistles on it....someone asked me about it the other day. There's some talking thru one of the solos..."

I've got that written down. The number of times I've listened to it and can make out about one word...is that the point that you're not meant to understand it...

"I did it in a false voice, part of a speech from Hamlet. I did it for the fun of it. I wanted to do a homage in a John Lennon -Beatles psyche period."

There's also a lot of T-Rex in it, a very surreal song, lots of random images...

"Marc Bolan played around with words a lot too. And I just always loved words. Later on I became an English major so I really learnt how to write but I never approached until recently writing song lyrics in a proper way. I think John Lennon is the king of playing with words - "Semalina Pilchard climbing up the Eiffel Tower" - what the hell is that?"

It's like Burroughs and Bowie doing cut-ups.

"Like stream of consciousness, Dada, Salvador Dali stuff - it's just fun. I'm trying to do more of it. I sort of envy these songwriters that do it properly where they write a narrative, a story with a start, middle and a finish."

Like Steve Earle or Springsteen. Sets the scene, this happens, there's a resolution, all tied up in a 3 minute pop song.

"Real pure country music lyrically is little stories. Hank Williams....'Normal Town' I ripped a lot of stuff off there. I did it for fun cos I wanted to do a homage, an 'I Am The Walrus' type cos I love that stuff. I went back and listened to Sgt Peppers and everybody thinks - and it is a landmark, watershed moment cos of production and direction but I went back and listened to The Stones Sgt Peppers - Satanic Majesties - and it's a much better album in my opinion . Well put together. I know they tried to do a Beatles thing but I think they took it a step further. I couldn't listen to the whole thing (Sgt Peppers), it just bored me."

On 'I Can't See You Again', what's the first line?

"Hill tribe girl...I think I was watching TVS, a documentary about Thailand. All these villages up the hills where the parents would have kids and sell off their daughters for prostitution. And that kinda fired that song."

Hence, her being "raised as a casualty"?

"Yeah."

So, what you listening to at the moment, what's rockin the roll in your household?

"I been going back and listening to some local music. Subsonics just put out a record. The leader of the band is this girl Buffy Adwello...she's into a lot of roots stuff, she could be a musicologist. Early R'n'R, you just name it. They do that, but they do it with more of a garage type....and I been listening to Ian Hunter, the first solo album, and I went back and started revisiting some other Mott records. It's really hard to find T-Rex records here in the United States. I've done a pretty good job, managed to collect imports, but the discologies so screwed up cos he's been dead for a long time, it's been sold from one company to another. But somebody has just put out a pretty decent compilation on it. I just had the TV on one night, wasn't paying attention, I was in the other room, and I hear (does riff of 20th Century Boy) and I'm like "What the fuck is that?", I go in there and it's a fucking PSV commercial using 20th Century Boy. Somebody picked it up and it's never been released in the US...Also been listening to Sam Phillips. She's just like the female incarnate of John Lennon, just blows me away. She's got a number of CD's out, a lot of critical acclaim, but never really sold...My favourite record of hers is "Martinis and Bikinis", just a really, really beautiful songwriter, singer...T-Bone Burnett is her husband. But I'm really impressed with her as a singer/songwriter. At the moment she's my favourite....Actually, Michele Vee has a girl called Elini. I got a copy of her CD and she was amazing. She's like a chanteuse with some more rock. Kind of fusion, very, very compelling, pulls it off well...To Michele Vee's credit she's got a real appreciation, and this is my theory. There's a lot of talent out there that no-one will ever know about. Far better than what you read about in the magazines. I think there's probably a lot of those, and to her credit she has this thing about finding people she thinks have gone unnoticed and promoting them which I think is a cool thing."

(Tommy's remark about better things than are in the magazines seemed to prompt a rant from me which was a pain in the arser to transcribe, ne'er mind to listen to. Anyway The Strokes and local scenesters were pilloried...)

...Going back to the other point you were making about trying to ape whoever my whole approach has been to find my own voice and do my own thing . Certainly I'm not gonna stand back and say I haven't been influenced by any number of...I mentioned to you about Roger McGuinn...and there's this song 'Naples Girl', there's this counterpoint to it, and I ran into somebody who said it sounds a lot like his stuff, and I'd never fashioned any of my stuff after Roger McGuinn's. I think Tom Petty has quite a bit...and I thought "Oh my god that's it exactly" and it was completely subconscious. I just wanted to mention there's a song on the Raw Ramps CD - Tomorrow's Gone - one of my favourites, the guitar player that played on that his name is Bruce Smith and he's kind of like a local legend. I've played with him on and off for years and he's completely underrated...he's amazing."

Is that him playing the main riff all the way thru?

"He's playing on top of my thing, I played rhythm on it, he does the solo and everything. He also played the solo on 'Try'n Like A Fool.'"

Really? I thought that was Rick?

"No, it's Bruce. I mean, he's right up there with Rick, they're like Beck and Page or something."

Speaking of Rick- you mentioned the other night about Rick and the Hellhounds, and they're mentioned in the CD booklet, so when's that from?

"The Hellhounds, after The Desperate Angels, with Rick and me. What it was, actually it was after Satellites. They were still doing The Satellites - long story short - Dan wanted to do a solo thing so Rick Price, the bassist, and Rick were left with the name Georgia Satellites, so continued to play in a more limited fashion then they got a deal with a label in Denmark a few years ago and they went over and recorded a CD there. Recorded one of the Desperate Angels songs that Rick and I wrote called 'Running Out' and put it out as a single. Not a lot came from it, but they still go to Europe as Geogia Satellites, do the festivals there in the summer. But in the meantime, more regionally, they had a band called The Hellhounds which I played in on and off for many years and it was more...half set of my material and Rick's material. Pretty much a bar band, somebody starts playing 'Needles and Pins' or something, and okay, jump in. A lot of Chuck Berry, a lot of really cool covers, 'Let's Spend the Night Together', Beatles, real blues bar band, never rehearse...The only difference between that version of the Hellhounds and later version of the Satellites is the Hellhounds got fewer dollars! And we played more cover tunes. But it was fun cos those songs are so great..'.Sweet Little Rock'n'Roller'..."

There's the one like that on the album - 'Busy Gettin Over You'. 

"A lot of people asked me about that. Actually, a lot of people have asked me about...looking at the song titles...Y'know "it sounds like this song's a lament for lost love"...Ken picked up on it...."

They do seem to be, tho. Songs like 'Paradise' and 'Thinking of You' roll along nicely, but the words are quite dark...like Peter Perret's kind of doomed romanticism.

"People ask me about subject matter...pretty much all fictional. I always had a sort of romantic sensibility, a fascination with relationships. Failure of relationships, success of...'Busy Getting Over You' was actually less fictional, more non-fictional. I'd just had a fight with a girlfriend at the time and everything worked out at that time. I just went to my room and just went "Fuck you". 'Never Get Enough' is a fictional story...I've heard a lot of singer/songwriters talk about it and I believe it, too. You're just like a - you're getting beams from across the universe, you don't know where they're coming from, or where they're going, and it turns into a song....I used to have a 9-5 job selling residential real estate, and I'd be sitting at my desk taking calls, and all of a sudden have a song idea pop into my head, and I'd go down and tell the receptionist I'm going out to show property and go home and grab my guitar and get at least the essence of it down on tape, so I wouldn't forget it."

But years, or months later, you could look back and see it was written about her, or that, like Burroughs said about not really knowing why he'd written something, then it becoming clear later on.

"Primarily, over the long haul, I've just written pretty much what I consider fictional, maybe I take real life things and bend 'em around a little bit. There's a universal thing that everybody goes through with relationships and I dunno, it appeals to me, or interests me...cos I think it might have a universal appeal."

On the album, they're not specific situations...

"I'll break it down...at some point in everyone's life you realise that in most cases, you're gonna wind up alone. I think it's fear - that's why people go to single's bars and then there's the whole other thing about abandonment and being orphaned, losing your parents, all those things come into play, I think, for everybody at some point, sometime in their lives, unless they die young like Jim Morrison. I've been reading a lot of Tennyson where he talks about grief and loss. I read a book by one of RF Kennedy's sons and that's why I started reading Tennyson, cos RFK found a whole load of solace from reading about grief and loss from the assassination of his elder brother...and maybe I've read enough Shakespeare to really kind of get that message. But the CD's kind of a compilation of a bunch of sessions with different people. But I think I sequenced it together pretty well. I feel like I could have done a lot better with it, but at the same time I thought, well you finished it a few years back... even tho' I'm not completely satisfied with it, I think it's pretty good and I'm just gonna sit on it until I have an opportunity to really get behind it. I didn't want to promote it in a half-assed way."

But aren't you always gonna look back and say 'Coulda done that better, that part's shit'...If you walk out the studio thinking it's perfect, you're not gonna push yourself to do any better. You just do your best at the time.

"Yeah, good point. You do what you do. Y'know, a lot of people are gonna miss this stuff and maybe'll pick up on this stuff you're just satisfied with...Mainly I'm out there to please myself. Definitely I want people to get it and entertain people but I think I need to feel I'm doing the best job I can do for myself and for whoever's listening to it."

Okay, Tommy, a final question for you like they used to ask in the old 60's magazines. What's your favourite drink at the moment?

"Unsweetened ice tea. Also, good Cabernet wine and Irish whiskey."

The Tommy Rivers and the Raw Ramps album is out on December Records for you to purchase, and I heartily recommend you do so. OK? - Stu Gibson